Quote from Postman Pat :

Thanks for the reply.
I think most ISI powersliding videos are just as much 4-wheel drifting, although people like to point the front wheels in the direction they're going and kid themselves they're steering it.

You described it better than I have managed. Check this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQmrUkJJj58 which is just very very odd, perfect video backup of ''The ISI Phenomenom'' or to be more accurate, the "GTL / GTR / EVO / 90% of rFactor mods phenomenom".

in that case, if he's at 30 degrees slip, front wheels pointing straight, he'd spin out if he applied opposite lock as initially this makes the front tires grip MORE. Still this is in great part due to dodgy tire parameters used.

My tires don't do that so much. Force combining is an issue, in real life the rear will naturally want to settle at a higher slip angle as you feed in some throttle. You would expect to see a bit more change of yaw depending on where your right foot is. I guess part is learning how to 'read' (see /hear) the signs in a good rFactor car and have delicate throttle control. With better force combining you'd see just a couple of degrees more yaw, indicating you're starting to wheelspin the rears, whereas in rFactor the cornering force does lower, and yaw increases, but it doesn't stabilize at a higher slip angle first.

That is a reasonable clue being mostly absent. Still, the amount of cornering grip the rear has can be controlled by adding or removing power; you just see a bit less 'wandering' and yaw, giving you less clues and making things a bit sudden..

see here http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=1194452#post1194452

Hello!

Me again. Have you got a G25, and have some known simracing skills, and you tried perhaps the corvette C6 or HistorX mod yet you still spin out way too often when the things go sideways?

If you do, and you'd like to do it some more with me watching and talking to you, I'd be chuffed. I'd like to learn a bit more about the reasons, hopefully making things better in future mods.

What you need is:
- G25 (900 degs simracers, preferably not DFP)
- quick enough pc that runs rFactor at high fps
- some simracing skills, no need for world records but you keep things on the road while going fairly quickly

What I offer is:
- the latest physics versions of a few cars, possibly Corvette C6 and one or two of the HistorX cars

What we're going to do is:
- get in touch over MSN
- decide on an evening with a few hours of driving on a server
- you'll drive and complain
- i'll try to fix things and explain, update the physics as we go and watch you drive, look for issuese.

Please reply if you're up for this!

Niels

Quote from Postman Pat :

I'd assumed that physics was experimental. Will give it a try.

Regarding the C6 version on rFactorcentral: I take it that that physics is improved since 2007 when the Brands Hatch hotlaps were done? - Because I was nearly half a second faster than the fastest using the default setup and fairly leisurely.

Lot of fun to drive the C6 and my favourite out of the few rFactor mods I've tried, but to be honest, to me it (the rfactorcentral version) still suffers with the ISI issue of the rear getting away and not correcting properly with countersteer. I end up making the usual stabbing overcorrections to catch it and then straightening up quickly before the snap-back (I'm on G25 with the right settings btw). The part of the ISI problem to me is that the snap-back happens without the initial lateral sliding motion slowing down properly first, which logically ought to happen before the rear wheels bite again surely? It's as though just as you notice the countersteer isn't doing what it should do, and you give more, the bugger snaps back the opposite way completely unexpectedly. Bloody annoying. Is that intrinsically incurable with the core physics?

There is indeed something that makes certain people unable to get anywhere with rFactor, and I can't put my finger on it. A video doesn't tell all that much, the Corvette one I posted wasn't so much about going sideways; its what you can't see: how the combination of throttle and opposite lock balance it, and this was actually a fastish lap, except for one or two corners.

When I started doing rfactor modding I had exactly the same problem, back steps out, opposite lock, and then very critical timing.. unwind the opposite lock 0.1 second too late and you tankslap the other way..

I still have that, but only with the fastest single seaters, i.e. GP2 or F1. To me, the Corvette C6 and historX are quite lazy in their movement and I got the hang of the throttle/steering balancing act. But, plenty of people keep snap/spin/dying when they get sideways, which can't just be driving skills..

I can't drive like this with GTL because gas / lifting both seem to increase the back end slide, instead of slight lifting coupled with a bit of extra opposite lock reducing the slide. I feel a huge difference between one of my cars which I can drive sideways, with what feels like a fairly realistic balancing of opposite lock and modulating power.

One difference is for sure that my mods tend to have lateral grip staying close to 100% even after you've reached peak slip angle. So when the back slides out, you certainly don't loose lots of lateral grip purely because of the slip angle you're at. You do loose some lateral grip if you add power, which is what it should be like, but lifting slightly restores lateral grip even if you're at 25 degrees slip angle. Its the timing of the 'return' steering that is hard, especially in lighter cars where as said I have exactly the same problem (F1 / GP2)

The rFactor central Corvette c6 version hasn't got the nicest tires though. It is know that ISI's force combining isn't the best, though neither is LFS's. This does influence part of the oversteer / catching 'sudden' ness but that might still not explain why some people spin 10x a lap and some drive 10 laps at 150% of the limit.

I do like to learn a bit more about why certain people can't get going in rFactor. In fact I'll start a thread about that in the off topic section.. I need some volunteers to work with.

I really don't understand how people can't control oversteer in rFactor.. with certain cars.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAV-kehHrU8 It can even be used to go quickishly. :P

Thanks.

If it gets worse over time, it could be a sign of overheating, which is possible, especially when you run high strengths in the profiler or game/sim.

Running the logitech software above 100% can start this phenomenom and running the game settings ''too high'' as well, read http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=1187337#post1187337 for some more info on that.

/Niels

The FFB settings would be different for each car and each setup. Suspension geometry and weight affect the FFB a lot, weight can also come with 'downforce' if the car has that.

Here's the problem with force feedback. We do not see the actual percentage of force feedback sent to the wheel. Thats why we can't tell if you need 10% or 40% or 100% in the LFS menu in order to truly maximize the force levels.

Set it too high and you'll get clipping; for example in a downforce car you wouldn't feel the difference between a 80 and 120mph corner, which you certainly would in real life due to the downforce. Set it too low and in general the forces might be weaker than desired.

Since the G25 is such a weak wheel, even though its probably about the best we have, I suspect lots of folks run too high FFB settings in LFS, just as it gives them a 'meaty' feeling. When a G25 feels 'meaty' though, you're likely to run FFB levels so high that even minute steering would generate 100% forces on the wheel.

Same for iRacing and rFactor, lots and lots of people running what is basically an on/off switch for force feedback. In LFS i rarely used more than 25%. With the Fz50 and some caster, even that caused considerable clipping of the FFB signal! In iRacing often the ideal value could be below 10.

At least rFactor with realfeel allows you to set the FFB levels per car, so that does require a minute of tweaking but then when you switch cars you don't have to change the FFB.

I've been on LFS and iRacing forums asking for a ''True FFB %'' meter, like a FPS counter so you can see when that number exceeds 100%, your FFB wheel won't deliver any higher forces.

Heya, hehe thats a trick question? There is room for improvement in all mods, mine are certainly no exception. Realism wise it seems rfactor modders tend to make the, in my opinion, same mistakes over and over again. There are often multiple things I disagree with but the tires is an area where there is enough real data out there to prove most mods likely to be wrong. It is a combination of a few common errors that makes cars odd to drive the closer you get to the limit. There might also be problems under the skin; no tyre model is perfect, and rFactor, just like LFS, has issues with its underlying tire physics.

I think at the moment I'm relatively happy with the Corvette C6 mod, provided you get the latest unofficial update at my crappy site http://geocities.com/n_heusink ... rphysics/physicsfiles.htm

There is something inherently dubious about a guy recomending his own work, I see that.. The Caterhams also worth driving I heard:

http://www.rfactorcentral.com/detail.cfm?ID=Caterham

If that is a straight conversion, something I never understand in the modding scene, its 99% conversion 1% creativity... then its just GTL which is a fun game but not very realistic at all, just like GTR Evo / GTR2 are not that great physics wise..

If you can, please do and tell us how!

I am not aware that there is a mod with my involvement out for GTR evo by the way

HistorX cars, speaking of mine, i.e. the GTC76 class, have an acceptable default setup, probably.. just get the adjustable steering rack upgrade and use ~25 .. 30 degrees in car setup with 900 on the G25. The usual rFactor things apply, get rid of speed sensitive steering, triple check all aids are off and axis sensitivities of 50% are linear.

I think I mentioned this before but its worth repeating.. You can't compare just LFS to rFactor. LFS is made by the same 3 people. Scawen has a certain approach to the physics model and the paramters that go into it. All the cars are likely to be build according to the same sort of 'visions', regarding physics.

rFactor also has a physics engine, it does graphics and sounds, but there are 3000 people supplying content. There are street cars available with more downforce than a Formula 3 car, there are cars that look like they're running on a 1997 Voodoo1 card, there are cars that sound like refrigurators.. However, there are also a few cars that are made with some physics logic, great looking 3D models and superb sounds.

LFS is of a constant quality, all cars and tracks are sort of roughly as good/bad. But when comparing to rFactor, you must also mention the car / track you're driving there as the quality difference between mods is just huge. This is such an essential and often overlooked thing when people try to compare sims!

The 25 euro price is extended to the end of june! :-)

Quote from farcar :

Wow. Lots of information to work with there, and straight from a dev's mouth.
For the record, I've mainly been driving the TC65 Falcon, and the GTC76 911 RS. Currently, I'm using a Momo with A1 GT Pedals and an Act Labs shifter.
Some of tyour suggestions I have already tried, but others I haven't, so hopefully there's a magic combination for me there somewhere.

Thanks a lot, and good luck with version 2.

Heya,

The MOMO makes it difficult; you're forced to compromise in a way that is always sub optimal for driving..

To get correct sensitivity, your momo turns about 240 degs, vs a G25's 900. In other words, a G25 turns 3.75x more.. That means if you use 30 degrees in the car setup on a G25, you'd have to use 3.75x less on a MOMO wheel in order to have the same sensitivity.. That would be 8 degrees. This gives you correct sensitivity but no margin for error to correct slides; these cars do rely on a few quick corrections.

If you use the other extreme, 30 degrees car setup with the MOMO, steering is WAY too sensitive. You barely have to do any steering in order to create the maximum grip in the corners. This is VERY easy to overshoot, and you enter the understeer zone.. Then if you floor it out of a corner, the back comes round, and seemingly opposite lock doesn't work.. This is because you're first unwinding the understeer, which actually makes the front grip MORE! Only once the understeer is unwound, does the opposite lock make sense..

I've seen quite a few drivers with such a wheel doing exactly this. Tankslapper gallore! Its almost impossible to drive with 30 degrees steering on a MOMO..

Then there is the average, some 19 degrees, which might be a compromise but still has the steering about 2.5x more sensitive than those real cars would've had.

To be perfectly honest, I wouldn't have a good time driving with anything but a G25, the rotation and 'speed' of this wheel matches those old cars fairly well. They're tricky enough to drive then, let alone with a compromised wheel such as the MOMO.

Theoretically and simplified, if the front tires have peak slip at 8 degrees, and you're using 28 degs in setup on a 900 degrees G25, the steering ratio is 16:1. This means you have to turn your G25 sixteen degrees in order for the front tires to turn 1 degree. To reach 8 degrees, you'd have to turn 128 degrees. Turning this much means you're hitting the lock stops of a MOMO, just as you've reached this 8 degrees of wheel lock. Using 28 degrees on your momo means you only have to turn 30 degrees, NOT A LOT! to reach maximum cornering grip*. Instinct tends to make people turn more, towards 90 degrees, meaning you're deep into understeer..

*simplified example!

Quote from farcar :

Well, I've given rfactor Historix Mod a good deal of time and effort over the last week or more. I've consulted numerous forums, downloaded real feel and tweaked my ini files extensively. With my passion for historic motorsport I really, really want to love it.......

But I just dont.

The sound and the graphics are fine, the reason is that I just don't feel the car on the road, and I don't realise I'm losing control until I've already lost it. More often than not, it's the rear end stepping out entering corners. Yes, with extensive practice and effort, I can learn not to make it happen by making sure my braking and entry speed are exact every time, but I don't want that. What I want is to feel what my car is doing on the road.

LFS does it for me (as did GPL), but not rfactor so far. Any tips or suggestions to get more 'feeling' out of this sim, I'm more than willing to listen to.

I appreciate that you really WANT this, unlike plenty of simracers who try rFactor 5 minutes and uninstall it...

I haven't tried the Historix 1.01 mod for a while as I'm busy developing version 2's physics. I did the GTC76 class (and LMP72) so they're the faster-ish ones. There are things in the other cars (65 class) that I disagree with physics wise. By now, there are also things I disagree with with my own cars in the GTC76 class of course!

The mod comes with recommended realfeel settings. For the GTC76 cars you're best off setting the G25 control panel to:
- 900 degs
- 100 .. 105% force
- 0% damping 0% spring

For each car, buy the adjustable steering rack upgrade. Then in the car setup, go with 25 to 30 degrees to get a fairly realistic steering sensitivity. In game, the force feedback should be set to 'low', and make sure axis sensitivities are 50%, disabling things like speed sensitivity which can ruin things quite easily. Also, make sure you get really high framerates, and preferably use RivaTuner or Ati Tray Tools to set ''frames rendered ahead'' (ati = flip queueueue size) to 1 or 0.

The default setups are alright (bar the steering lock), at least, they are what I drive and they shouldn't be so far off to blame them for your failings.

Perhaps the Capri 2600 is a good car to start out with. Don't be afraid to move the brake bias forward, use 80% front bias.. The reason is you set the TRUE bias, normally the rear brakes are weaker so even with a 50/50 brake bias setup, the fronts would brake harder.. Not so in Historx. Secondly, engine braking is a bit too high so downshifting can cause a bit of rear end wobble, or worse.

If you don't heel & toe on the downshifts, try buying another car upgrade, select one of the shifter options that fits your driving style. This can make the sim auto-blip for you on the downshifts which should make it easier to slow down. Still, don't shift down too early, high revs = risk of rear end lockup!

There are plenty of tracks that are excessively bumpy and wobbly, most aren't too suited for nice racing. These bumps aren't as deadly for the soft-ish-ly sprung historic cars but they still upset the car more than they should. Try Virtua LM's Mid Ohio, also too bumpy but well made and drivable..

If you still have huge issues, I'd like to learn more about how you drive and stuff, possibly going online with you to learn a bit. You're not alone in feeling totally LOST with rFactor which I hope to understand a bit better.

We're working on version 2 of the Historx and our aim is of course to make the cars fairly natural to drive to the at least semi skilled.

Niels

The signs of occasional gear issues can mean wearing potentiometers in the shifter, this is likely to get worse. The same could be true for the pedal spike; potentiometer might be wearing out.

With no warranty on these, I imagine the buyer might not have all that many months left with the bits before the wear gets annoying.

A new G25 comes with 2 years warranty, which might be worth considering..

Wow, just looked at this previously attached chart:

http://www.lfsforum.net/attach ... id=84681&d=1242816769

Thats insane. Looks like the author saw a longitudinal slip vs force chart, and replaced the x axis with temperature.. The crap people can publish in a book these days eh!

The one with the porsches was deliberatly focussed on the fence! The camera does have a manual focus but even then you see a sort of blurry fence. You can't really pan with the lens sticking through the fence either.

Then again, choosing between a fence or a car crashing into the crowd..

Quote from DevilDare :

Weird pics Can we have some cars instead of you racing flate?

Those damn fences make it really hard to get a decent car picture in. I don't have many good ones, only the slowest cars seemed to be happy to be taken pictures off, probably something with my panning skills

It was a noisy (10000 small generators, 1000 nearby speakers with mostly tastless music..) week but also a great one. Here are a few piccies

http://h-engineering.nl/pics/shakinghands.jpg
http://h-engineering.nl/pics/driving_with_flate.jpg
http://h-engineering.nl/pics/flate_sits_on_the_ring.jpg
http://h-engineering.nl/pics/raysoflight.jpg
http://h-engineering.nl/pics/nightfalls.jpg
http://h-engineering.nl/pics/rubberonroad.jpg
http://h-engineering.nl/pics/porschesbehindbars.jpg
http://h-engineering.nl/pics/2009ring24hwinner.jpg
http://h-engineering.nl/pics/night_down_from_karrussel.jpg

Hey guys,

The mother of race circuits isn't used for all that many races, but the 24H race is a high point in the year. Two mates and me are going; we're hiring a van, bringing some tents and scaffolding (damn fences..), bbq and fridge, hoping for nice weather.

Are there any veteran visitors around? We basically plan to ''show up'' tuesday afternoon, hoping to find a decent spot somewhere around the track, put up our tents and open a few beers.. Perhaps 24h veterans have some tips or warnings for us, that would be most appreciated.

/Niels

PS: yes we'll bring plenty of bog rolls..

Quote from SilverArrows77 :

Yes Moose noted this and said they had been running with a modifed GDB - ive been running Cadwell only today (with the Vette), with default GDB, and then with GDB settings recommended by Moose (1.0) and it certainly is better reduced. Mismatch online obviously (unless server running same GDB i guess?) but at moment im happy lapping it offline anyway

Cool, indeed its a challenging place! Lets hope that new version is more accurate and we're in for lots of virtual hospital visits.

Sadly Cadwell makes, if memory serves, no sense because there is 18% more grip than usual. God knows what the creator / convertor was thinking. Its like giving slicks to normal cars and super qualifiers to racing cars..

I'm with Donald Duck..